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Guild Debates
Debate 1: Guild Alliances.
(in 9pt Monaco black-on-white for readability)
Log file opened at: 1/25/01 7:58:26 PM
Madrin: Representatives who are participating- you'll probably want to use the breaks in-between debate phases to type out your ideas if you're not a fast typer. You'll only have 5 minutes to speak.
Madrin: The room is now silenced. 5 minutes to debate time.
Madrin: In the meantime, I want to thank everyone for coming and introduce the representatives:
Madrin: From Death Dreams, Hwoody...
Madrin: From Wielders of the Sword, Saliador
Madrin: From Leaders of Virtue, Khraiven should be here. If he does not show, Mikal will represent the Chaotic Soldiers.
Madrin: From Concordis Animus, Vincent.
Madrin: and From Cadre Quietus, Aztralamis.
Madrin: Now, a quick rundown of the rules..
Madrin: I will announce the topic at 8pm. From there the reps will have 10 minutes to collect their thoughts...
Madrin: then they will have 5 minutes to speak their minds in an opening statement, after each of them speak another 15 minute break will proceed...
Madrin: after that break, each rep will have 5 minutes for rebuttals, followed again by a 10 minute break...
Madrin: and lastly, each rep will have 3 minutes to wrap up their arguments and bring the whole thing to a close.
Madrin: If for some reason one of the reps loses their connection, another member of their guild may message me to be instated as the acting rep.
Madrin: Only one ground rule as of right now, please do not refer to another guild by name in order to use them as an example. We have to be as unbiased as we can, right?
Madrin: And now... the most requested topic for this debate IIIISSSSSSS......
Madrin: Alliances! Reps collect your thoughts, open chat for 10 minutes.
************************* BEGIN OPEN CHAT ********************************
DD|Hwoody: ok
DD|Hwoody: Alliances
Madrin: BTW Hwoody you will be first.
DD|Hwoody: k
DD|Hwoody: Ok DD's stance on allies is simple
Madrin: Saliador is second
Madrin: Hwood, you're not up yet
DD|Hwoody: o ok
DD|Hwoody: sorry
Madrin: Mikal is third
Madrin: Vincent, fourth
Madrin: Az, fifth.
Andy_Kaufm: you might want to keep the channel +m the whole time
Andy_Kaufm: and +v the speakers
Madrin: nope, I want the public to throw in their ideas in-between. Don't want a dead room the whole time :-)
Madrin: Damn K, you just missed the kickoff
Khraiven: doh
Madrin: I'll put you on the list for next time, guarantee your spot
Thor|BS: Well, you've got a dead room right now
Thor|BS: ^_^
CS|Cal: Hello
Madrin: I'd rather it be dead by choice, heh.
CS|BlackDe: Hi!
Khraiven: put me on the list for next time?
Thor|BS: The debate should move a bit faster, after all, people in chatrooms are supposed to be quick-witted!
Madrin: yeah, for the debate of course
Lord-Aegis: omg
WotS-Fredo: quick whatted?
Lord-Aegis: why wasn't I invited?
Aztralamis: supposed to be quick-witted?
Aztralamis|CQ| scoots out the exit
WotS-Fredo: huh?
Andy_Kaufm: Because you are a 2-dollar hoe aegis?
Khraiven: guess my clock is a bit behind :/
Madrin: Aegis, it was posted on the Stratics guildhall.
Gorukha]CO: it is 8 right now, actually 4 past
Lord-Aegis: I don't read that
Lord-Aegis: trickery!
Madrin: that's ok Khraiven, you are secured a spot for next time
Andy_Kaufm: Aegis was too busy soliciting sex unfortunately =(
NEX]Naebli: lol
Khraiven: later comes have to leave?
Thor|BS: Now, since no one else is going to say it I'm sure:
Thor|BS: My guild r0xx0red all of you'res!!!
Khraiven: later comers that is
Madrin: no K, you can still watch
Andy_Kaufm: Thor=SUX!
Thor|BS: lmao
NEX]Naebli: lol Thor
NE|Ares: lol
Lord-Aegis: sucky sucky 5 dolla
NEX]Naebli: *** NEX]Naeblis[IMPERIUM changes topic to 'is my guild l33t3r than j00rs ? Find out in () guild debate'
Thor|BS: Notice I didn't even use proper grammar
Andy_Kaufm: lol aegis
Chade: this should be interesting
Aegis|eati: don't start without me!
[DD]Neyo-Q: holy crap
NEX]Naeblis[IMPERIUM gives Thor a cookie j00r guild wins
Thor|BS: w00t
CS|Ringmas: NO MORE LAME CHAT LINGO!! I'm gonna start smackin
NEX]Naebli: okz0r
NE|Ares: smackdown!
Andy_Kaufm: Ringmaster=thesux!
Thor|BS: Lame chat lingo?
Andy_Kaufm: Chade...are you debating for combine?
CS|Ringmaster shakes up a beer at sprays YOU for 5 damage!
Andy_Kaufm: or just a genius at work?
Chade: not that I know of
TobinGreyr: When's this starting?
DD|Nisi: hey drew join the channel my son
Thor|BS: Ringmaster = unl33t
Aztralamis: bleh, where's the log option at
Eirik_derR: what are you all "debating"?
Gorukha]CO: Why hasn't this shindig started yet ?
Thor|BS: It has Gorukha
NEX]Naebli: whose guild owns who ?
CS|Ringmas: RIngmaster = that guy that happens 2 b better than you at everything but chat lol
Andy_Kaufm: RIngmaster sux!
Gorukha]CO: I thought the speakers were supposed to well hmm speak
Thor|BS: Aka unl33t
************************* END OPEN CHAT ********************************
Madrin: they will, in one minute
Madrin: HOT SEAT! Room is silent except for Hwoody of Death Dreams... five minutes to open your argument. After that, Saliador is up.
spitefulbe: that might help :)
DD|Hwoody: Ok
DD|Hwoody: Well as in any game or real life alliances can make or break a guild
DD|Hwoody: We at Death Dreams chose to have alliances as a backup of our guilds and ultimately as our bothers
DD|Hwoody: *brothers
DD|Hwoody: Alliances must prove themselves through actions and not just by words
DD|Hwoody: Alliances are the people that help you when your guild is doing bad
DD|Hwoody: Some guilds chose not to have alliances which is a bad stance
DD|Hwoody: If your guild isn't the largest in the world you should forge alliances to help make your guild stronger
DD|Hwoody: Like take us for instance
DD|Hwoody: We are an average size guild- around 20 people
DD|Hwoody: our alliances are what help us become stronger
DD|Hwoody: alliances with large and strong guilds like The Nameless Empire and The DoMiNioN just help in the battlefield
DD|Hwoody: And at the end those become your friends
DD|Hwoody: I'm done:)
Madrin: HOT SEAT! Saliador, you're up. 5 minutes... then Mikal gets his shot.
WotS-Salia: The way in which WolfPack has designed the basics of Shadowbane lead me to believe that Alliances will have as much to do with a guild's success as their strength
WotS-Salia: They are creating a game where the *players* control the political climate of the world
WotS-Salia: To my knowledge, this is a first, and we must prepare ourselves for a different environment in their upcoming MMORPG
WotS-Salia: To be sure, successful alliances will have everything to do with a guild's military or economic strength, however this strength alone will not lead to prosperity and success.
WotS-Salia: Alliances are a natural way for groups to keep others in check
WotS-Salia: and regardless of the size and power of a guild in Shadowbane, an alliance of other guilds will be able to stop them
WotS-Salia: A good alliance must be one that is more than an alliance in name
WotS-Salia: it must be exhibited by camaraderie with the allied guilds
WotS-Salia: Strength, influence, notoriety, credibility, and accountability are all-important aspects of a guild when it comes to alliances
WotS-Salia: I believe that we will see Alliances become the backbone to successful guilds in Shadowbane.
Madrin: HOT SEAT!! Mikal is up. 5 minutes and then Vincent is on the spot.
CS|Mikal: thanks
CS|Mikal: it has been my experience that alliances are for the weak
CS|Mikal: to enter into an alliance with another guild shows little more than you fear confronting them
CS|Mikal: anyone that believes allying will make you stronger is blind
CS|Mikal: because an alliance is only as strong as its weakest link
CS|Mikal: if your guild cannot compete on its own it will only serve to bring any possible allies down
CS|Mikal: at which point you're simply making more enemies
CS|Mikal: this is all past experience and I can't speak for SB's release as I've never played it
CS|Mikal: but despite how WP wants to run their game they can't make every alliance work perfectly
CS|Mikal: I believe it will be interesting to see how different alliances work
CS|Mikal: and what ways people will find to break them
CS|Mikal: anyone that enters an alliance should do so only if they can trust that guild like their own
CS|Mikal: and strong bonds should be built before the guild allies in name
CS|Mikal: but even then often times alliances crumble over the smallest of problems
Madrin: HOT SEAT!! Vincent is up, then Azt has the final opener.
CA|Vincent: Alliances will be an essential element to success in SB.
CA|Vincent: The guild structure of SB allows for never-before seen depth of play.
CA|Vincent: In previous games, the larger guild is top dog, with few exceptions.
CA|Vincent: The fealty trees and traditional alliances allow for both the large and
CA|Vincent: the small to gain strength and influence.
CA|Vincent: Many will argue that alliances are prone to failure from the get-go. This can
CA|Vincent: be overcome with careful planning of allies and fealty situations. The compatibility
CA|Vincent: of guild ideologies is the primary concern for anyone making an alliance.
CA|Vincent: If
CA|Vincent: the guilds get along in ideals and goals, then there should be few conflicts
CA|Vincent: of interest in the long run. Moreover, the similarity in ideals means the members
CA|Vincent: of the two guilds will get along better, and will certainly develop bonds of friendship.
CA|Vincent: ....
CA|Vincent: Such alliances allow even small guilds to rise to positions of power through leadership
CA|Vincent: and charisma. The primary goal of Concordis Animus is to create a multi-state republic founded
CA|Vincent: upon virtue, dignity, and prosperity. just to many different servers.
CA|Vincent: This can succeed well if properly organized and
CA|Vincent: the participating city-states have compatible ideologies. Additionally, such a united
CA|Vincent: force would be quite an influence to repressive guilds which do not share the ideals which
CA|Vincent: the republic is founded.
CA|Vincent: To realize this goal of unity, prosperity, and near-perfect government, Concordis Animus
CA|Vincent: has recently created a formal agreement (written) with the Nameless Empire. NE shares
CA|Vincent: a very compatible ideology with CA and will be a great force in helping achieve that goal
CA|Vincent: of a unified republic.
CA|Vincent: Both NE and CA wish to end repressive tyrannical governments and
CA|Vincent: unite players of our world under virtue. Until CA and NE both establish strong city-states,
CA|Vincent: both guilds will support and help one another to achieve a state of strength and prosperity.
CA|Vincent: This is one such example of how alliances can lead to great kingdoms - or in this case,
CA|Vincent: a republic.
CA|Vincent: SB's revolutionary mechanics make all of this possible, and I am certain it will be a whole new gaming
CA|Vincent: world and experience that will challenge all previous doctrines of guild success in MMORPGs.
CA|Vincent: Guilds which do not take advantage of the power of alliances in SB will find themselves crushed
CA|Vincent: by them. I foresee coalitions of small guilds being the powerhouse in Shadowbane.
CA|Vincent: ...
CA|Vincent: done
CA|Vincent: copy paste is a blessing
Madrin: In that case, I'll open the chat!
Paradox_Eq: So are cars. They get rid of stupid people
Aegis|eati: I love you all
TobinGreyr: interesting
Gorukha]CO: lol
Guylus|CQ: What about Az?
Eirik_derRoude explodes in laughter
Madrin: crap!
Aztralamis: heh
Madrin: getting excited
Aztralamis: I got lost on a channel split
Aztralamis: Ok since it is moderated and I cannot change back to CQ I am indeed from Cadre quietus
Aztralamis: CQ's stance has been the same from its inception on alliances
Aztralamis: it may come across that we appear snooty or aloof when others ask of alliances but this is not the case at all
Aztralamis: CQ believes that alliances are a great tool and one that will serve to strengthen empires
Aztralamis: but that is down the road
Aztralamis: it is the policy of CQ that we become friends first and foremost
Aztralamis: Alliances in the real world are a much different thing than in a gaming environment
Aztralamis: in the real world you can break alliances at the drop of a hat
Aztralamis: and despite what WP says about their structure we find it hard to believe that you could drop an alliance overnight
Aztralamis: not with all the mechanics involved
Aztralamis: thus we want to know up front whom we are dealing with
Aztralamis: the beta process will be a great way for us to get to know many other guilds and some of their members
Aztralamis: we can form friendships and learn more about each other before entering into any said alliance
Aztralamis: we don't plan on going it alone when the final release hits
Aztralamis: but it is simply to early to call anyone an ally
Aztralamis: friend yes, ally no
Aztralamis: we hope that some of these friends will become allies down the road
Aztralamis: but the simple fact is we are dealing in an online world where no one meets face to face
Aztralamis: thus determining what someone really wants or what they stand for is next to impossible when you are staring at typing on a monitor
Aztralamis: we want to establish bonds with all of you in beta
Aztralamis: we want do adventure with you, learn about you and you learn more about us
Madrin: Good thing Vincent finished up early... I almost cut into Az's time there :-) Open chat until 8:50, then we'll start it up again in reverse speaking order. Azt will be first going down the list to Hwoody. Reps, prepare your rebuttals!
Aztralamis: we simply cannot at this point in time commit to an alliance structure especially one based on a game that no one has actually played yet
Thor|BS: Is this a lecture or a debate?
Aztralamis: ok done
************************* BEGIN OPEN CHAT ********************************
LotD-Parad: Adventure...
CA|Vincent: sorry for the fast pasting
Madrin: It's a formal debate Thor
Aztralamis: heh sorry I talked a lot
LotD-Parad: Hmph
Madrin: each person gets a shot
Aztralamis: talk
CA|Vincent: I'll slow it down next time
Caperon|SB: ..
CA|Vincent: and use all of my time to give others the opportunity to read
Gorukha]CO: Well they will form rebuttals afterwards right ?
NEX]Naebli: WOT A CROCK OF SH!T
Madrin: no problem Vincent.. it ain't against the rules
Thor|BS: Yeah, but most people agree
Thor|BS: So why debate
Aegis|eati: shut up Naeblis
Thor|BS: How can you debate if people agree!
Khraiven: can still debate views
Caperon|SB: Boot Aegis
Zophar: www.pkghost.com
CA|Vincent: Not everyone agreed
Caperon|SB: OMG Ban Aegis
Thor|BS: Yeah, but most did
Gorukha]CO: I saw 3 completely different view here, lots to disagree on
WotS-Salia: yeah, now we get to cut each other down :)
Khraiven: CA is against alliances, correct?
Thor|BS: 3 different views, 5 different speakers
CS|Mikal: interesting
Gorukha]CO: Other than Mikal's guild they all want alliances
CS|Mikal: ...
LotD-Parad: Wow, Zophar is advertising for me
LotD-Parad: I feel special
Gorukha]CO: just one wants to ally first and be friends later
NE|Ares: I've found this discussion to be most enlightening.
Gorukha]CO: and the other the other way around
TobinGreyr: seem like most people just wanna ally and be all happy carebear nicey nice. this game might not be for me
Zophar: no actually, your advertising for me :P
Chade: I don't see how u can really ally without playing with someone in a game before?
Rayne: One thing you debaters should think about addressing is your opinion of the difference between and Alliance and in Joint Beneficiary treaties
TobinGreyr: boooring. not what I'm looking to pay to play
WotS-Salia: good point Rayne
CS|Mikal: tobin
Gorukha]CO: There are different kinds of alliances people
CS|Mikal: there'll be plenty of slaughter
WotS-Salia: non-aggression pacts?
Gorukha]CO: Economic
Caperon|SB: this place smells
LotD-Parad: We're advertising for each other then
TobinGreyr: yes
CS|Mikal: even if everyone allies but us
Spiridus|C: CA is for
LotD-Parad: Why don't you ever update zoph?
Gorukha]CO: Military
NEX]Naebli: smells like aegis's butt
NE|Ares: No, the people want their guilds to survive. While beta has a limited amount of players, with Shadowbane's growing notoriety there will be a flood of new players
Gorukha]CO: it doesn't have to invite friendship
LotD-Parad: It' pizz0rs me off. I feel all lonely up there
DD|Hwoody: lol
Gorukha]CO: lol
NE|Ares: Some guilds will use massive recruitment and will be, well, scary
Khraiven: oh yeah, CS was the guild against Alliances
WotS-Fredo: one point I would like to make
Gorukha]CO: A guild without allies will fall no matter how big
NE|Ares: Some people don't like being in guilds of 200 people, which is very understandable
Chade: Ares yes but mass recruitment guilds will have very little unity
CS|Ringmas: We're not against alliances, we just don't need one to own
CS|Mephist: ok what the fuck am I supposed to be fucking doing here
CS|Ringmas: we never have
CS|Ringmas: we never will
WotS-Fredo: There are guilds with allies already
WotS-Fredo: as in SiN
Chade: so if they start to lease you will see a mass exodus from the guilds that let anyone in
Chade: it simply isn't fun to die
Gorukha]CO: That's what CS thinks since they never played SB before
Madrin: Mephist, please watch the language.
NE|Ares: yes, basically they'll probably be around just long enough to destroy your city, etc before falling into civil strife
Gorukha]CO: We will see in game
CS|Mephist: Gorukha and who the fuck are you
LotD-Parad: Madrin, should we speak Mongolian instead?
Chade: not my city Ares :P
LotD-Parad: Bah, this isn't a fucking Stratics public channel
NE|Ares: oh great, TCE
Gorukha]CO: hey I am just saying ur basing ur ownage on other games
Gorukha]CO: lol
LotD-Parad: Oh wonderful... more TCE.
Khraiven: not to question you guys, but don't you think things will be much different in SB? Being it is far more guild based then any other game to date
Eirean_The_Monkey|TCE smiles
Ramsus|TCE: Bleh!
NE|Ares: why are they even here?
Yadosh|TCE: ello ello
LotD-Parad: Durendal, long time no see! Eirean!
LotD-Parad: Ol Darkblade says Hi
Durendal|T: hello
WotS-Fredo: it will be different
NE|Ares: damn.
Aztralamis: a bit late to the party aren't you tce, I sure hope you brought a gift to appease us
WotS-Fredo: different
Eirean_The: Howdy all
Durendal|T: hey there paradox, I wondered where you ended up
LotD-Parad: Well, I still consider you a friend
Ramsus|TCE: Howdy Paradox, how ya doing?
Eirean_The: Heeeeey! You der!
Patron_the: Time to talk of alliance...
LotD-Parad: I've been fine ramsus.
Apposel|TC: Paradox what's wrong with TCE bro?
Patron_the: Are we all ready?
DD|Hwoody: Patron!
Gorukha]CO: Hahaha so Patron isn't inactive
Patron_the: DD!
LotD-Parad: APPOSEL! Fuckin A! What's up
Aegis|Nex: hi Patron
Aegis|Nex: :)
Gorukha]CO: funny stuff
Patron_the: Aegis!
LotD-Parad: A lot of things are wrong with TCE, it's just not my style
Patron_the: Long time bro
Apposel|TC: Not much man, just wonderin why the "ugh more TCE"
Thor|BS: Oh my god.. its patron the wrathful
Aegis|Nex: hehe yeah
NE|Ares: its too big
Thor|BS cowers in fear
DD|Hwoody: yep
NE|Ares: so to say.
Aegis|Nex: Patron = luz's evil twin
Gorukha]CO: No point discussing TCE, it's all been said
LotD-Parad: Heh, to me you're still TAH, and TAH is quite a damn bit different in my eyes
DD|Hwoody: yep
NEX]Naebli: Madrin: ARE YOU HOMOSEXUAL ?
LotD-Parad: Too bad TAH isn't really TAH anymore...
NE|Ares: I have a question for TCE members, what do you think is the % of TCE members that have beta accounts?
Gorukha]CO: Patron will say 100% watch
Gorukha]CO: lol
LotD-Parad: Ares: You'd be surprised
Thor|BS: Beta accounts are unimportant in the big picture of things.
Aegis|Nex: no he wont :P
Apposel|TC: we're still TAH, but we're even different than you believe
LotD-Parad: Over 40
NE|Ares: ...right.
Madrin: Sorry about the mess Mephisto... working on the channel here..
CS|Ringmas: I got a question. When do we stop talking and get party cake. I want party cake, I was told there was cake, and I'm hungry.
Eirean_The: Around 50 peeps in beta last count
LotD-Parad: Yea apposel, castrated, turned into a caster-only division, and scattered to the four corners of the empire
NE|Ares: thrilling.
Hothram: TAH?
LotD-Parad: I didn't feel happy having that done to me, so I left.
Ramsus|TCE: The Arcane Horde
Eirean_The: I was under the impression there was beer......Patty did you lead us wrong?
Aegis|Nex: someone ask what % of Nex members are in beta
LotD-Parad: No hard feelings at all
Durendal|T: Woodchuck!!
Gorukha]CO: 1% ?
Patron_the: The beer will get here
Ramsus|TCE: Yeah, where is the beer?
Durendal|T: the drink of drinks!
Aegis|Nex: almost Gor
NEX]Naebli: what % of NEX is in Beta Aegis ?
Thor|BS: 100%, eh?
Aegis|Nex: 100% :)
Thor|BS: Everyone knows that
NEX]Naebli: OMG WE R0X
Gorukha]CO: lol
Yadosh|TCE: We want vodka!
Ramsus|TCE: Howdy Rel!
Eirean_The_Monkey|TCE puts on a little bowtie and hops on Patty's shoulder
Durendal|T: thought it was 99.9 % =p
CS|Ringmas: FACTIOD: the martini was invented in California as an excuse to take straight gin
Aegis|Nex: ya Durendal is right
Ramsus|TCE: Yes! Bring us the potato liquor!
Aegis|Nex: Luz lost his arm
Reltarri|TCE yawns
NE|Ares moves away silently from the NEX people
Aegis|Nex: so he's only .9%
LotD-Chupi: heh Ares ;p
Gorukha]CO: Luz counts as 50% of the guild
Aegis|Nex: !!
Gorukha]CO: he ownz
Aegis|Nex: ya he does
LotD-Parad: How have things been Apposel?
Gorukha]CO: hahahaha
Aegis|Nex: he seduces men with his bro comments
LotD-Parad: And what ever happened to Malachi?
Yadosh|TCE: speech speech!
NEX]Naeblis[IMPERIUM moves over and puts his arm around NE|Ares
CS|Ringmas: wow
NE|Ares: well, I bet almost all of the guilds with more then 50 members have moles.
CS|Ringmas: ok
CS|Ringmas: out of the room
CS|Mephist: ok real quick, someone please SOMEONE explain to me, the purpose of this room
NEX]Naebli: Ares!!
CS|Ringmas: Meph
CS|Mephist: Cyrus you stole my router
CS|Ringmas: We want cake
CS|Ringmas: and they won't give it up
NEX]Naebli: ARES!!!
NE|Ares: what?
NEX]Naebli: wanna cyber ?
NE|Ares: no damnit
Ramsus|TCE: So, why the hell are we here exactly since the beer has yet to show?
CS|Ringmas: ...
NEX]Naebli: :(
Reltarri|T: Doesn't anyone want conflict ??
Aegis|Nex: TCE sux :)
WotS-Fredo: conflict will come
Celtia|TCE: I was wondering that exact same thing, Ramsus
Reltarri|T: Are that many people going to ally with each other?
WotS-Fredo: whether they want it or not
WotS-Aknol: Mephisto the purpose it to debate alliances, but without the leader controlling the flow, we have what you are presently seeing
Lynx|PoP: no need to want it..it will always be there
NE|Ares: I want new alliances for the Nameless Empire
Eirean_The: There is conflict!!! Die Aegis!!
Gorukha]CO: Well the bigger the alliances the bigger the conflict
spitefulbe: the moderated rebuttals start in 5 minutes
Aztralamis: Don't worry about conflict TCE, you will have plenty of it on the server yer bound for
LotD-Parad: Apposel?
Aegis|Nex: TCE is bound for a server?!
NE|Ares: addressing the DD people, when did your guild start?
LotD-Parad: ...
WotS-Fredo: they going with SiN?
Reltarri|T: Nah. you'll all try and act out your vendetta against us to the exclusion of all else. I said yo momma to you on the forum
DD|Hwoody: about 3 months ago
CS|Mikal: SiN's a joke
CS|Mikal: e
Aegis|Nex: r
WotS-Fredo: heh
NEX]Naebli: k
NE|Ares: hey, sin even has a bad name. What more do you need?
Aztralamis: I am not talking of any guild in here. you are in the guild beta correct
Reltarri|TCE yawns
mons1: hello ratroom
Thor|BS: BS = good name.
mons1: patron
Reltarri|T: hi mons
NE|Ares: lol
Patron_the: Mons!
mons1: hey rel
Reltarri|T: Patron.
NE|Ares: DD, do you have any current alliances worked out?
Patron_the: Alliances are weak. They are the ultimate crutch of the coward. If you truly wanted safety, or strength, you would learn that it comes not from Alliance, but sacrifice. disband your guilds. Become one. Give up your position for a chance at true strength. Alliances are only as strong as convenience. When that convenience ceases to exist, so to will the alliance. Your supposed strength will falter. You will have no
Patron_the: When that time comes, as it invariably will, the morale of your members will crumble to dust. They will leave you, seeking those who are willing to make the sacrifices necessary in order to become greater then the individual. They will come seeking me. They will come to claim the Crimson banner as their sovereign. You could, of course, save yourself the wasted time, and seek a seat at my table now. The question,
Patron_the: There we go
Patron_the: My piece
Ramsus|TCE: God damn Patron
Gorukha]CO: hahahahahahaha
Eirean_The: Yeehaw!
Patron_the_Wrathful shrugs
CS|Ringmaster hands patron a Prozac tablet.
Durendal|T: heh
CA|Vincent: You should have signed up patron
Celtia|TCE: hehe
Gorukha]CO: He came prepared
Yadosh|TCE: prozac! Where?
Thor|BS: Fool Patron ;p
Chade: Patron_the_Wrathful alliances CAN be weak
Patron_the: Nitches
NEX]Naebli: Hey patron.
Thor|BS: You're awful arrogant for a vapor guild's leader
CA|Vincent: and not reading the previous arguments, your statements are a bit silly
LotD-Parad: Patron lost his viagra again! God damn patron, get back to your bedchambers immediately1
CS|Mikal: alliances are weak
Gorukha]CO: TCE is a one big alliance
NEX]Naebli: I was talking to rakash b4
CS|Mephist: some of you people type a little, and I do mean just a little too much
Chade: the trick is to choose the right ones
Ramsus|TCE gets his flame retardant suit ready
DD|Nisi: cocoa crispies is the shit
NEX]Naebli: she says she did nasty things to your penis
NEX]Naebli: is that correct ?
Reltarri|T: Patron: everyone else has been playing SB for the past year. we are the only vapor guild
Ramsus|TCE: Hell yeah Nisi
WotS-Aknol: I don't care who is right or who is wrong in their guild philosophy, but I do know that all of us are curious what the others think or you wouldn't be here.
Patron_the: Yes, yes, all of you cowards expect to get soooo many allies that you won't ever have to worry about fighting. Then you can run around talking about your r33t skills, as you do now
Patron_the: bunk
Reltarri|T: sucks for us
Patron_the: BS
Patron_the: SB is about War
Hothram: heh
Durendal|T: you had the cocoa crispies with the marshmallows in it? that's the shiznit
Patron_the: Fucking PKing
Hothram: that's funny
Hothram: you see
Thor|BS: Just like you are Patron?
Gorukha]CO: Actually allies are good to kill with
Patron_the: not lets be nice EQ shit
Hothram: with very few exceptions
LotD-Parad: Patron, TCE has done more talking than most of the UO guilds combined
Hothram: guilds just do not exist that are active past 50 people
CS|Ringmas: OK, back to reality. You don't have a sex life, except with your pillow and cinemax, and..well..that's about it.
Hothram: any old guild just is not bigger then that
Oaken_G[TC: hola
LotD-Parad: You are in no position to be a hypocrite any more at the moment.
Patron_the: OK Mr. Baja alliance BS
Hothram: so fi you want to do big time stuff
Hothram: then you ally
Hothram: its simple
Aztralamis: Lol
CS|Mephist: Survey:
Patron_the: Shit. I am here to fight, not ally
Patron_the: Alliance is Bunk
Patron_the: Cowardice
Thor|BS: To fight you must first have allies.
Gorukha]CO: GUYS TCE RULEZ EQ REMEMBER !!!! BOW DOWN
Reltarri|T: At least being in TCE ill see some action hehe :) guaranteed :)
Thor|BS: You yourself lead a guild, don't you Patron?
Patron_the: I am in a room fool of scared little gamers
Yadosh|TCE: that will make my celebrity squares appearance awkward
Oaken_G[TC: Alliance could lead to potential disaster though
Thor|BS: You wouldn't dare fight a group of people by yourself?
CS|Mephist: How many of you feel your IQ dropping as I type this from just being in here?
Cyrus_Khan: Ringmaster, wow, you couldn't come up with better than that?
Celtia|TCE: Allies only proves you cannot hold your own against your enemy
Patron_the: Well, yes
************************* END OPEN CHAT ********************************
Madrin: HOT SEAT!! Az, you're first up with the rebuttals! After your 5, Vincent is on the seat.
Aztralamis: bunk much like your bunk of trying to convince the world you have 9 sub guilds already
Aztralamis: aside from the fact that they are actually your guild to begin with
Madrin: Az you're up!
Madrin: 4:30 and counting
Aztralamis: lol up for what?
Madrin: rebuttals! go!
Madrin: 4 minutes and counting... move it or lose it
Aztralamis: no rebuttal is needed since really no one has objected alliances or the use of them in their entirety
Aztralamis: alliances will be used
Aztralamis: and they will be an integral part of determining the landscape
Aztralamis: even if every guild in this room allied there will still be plenty of conflict that you can be sure of
Aztralamis: the amount of people and guilds playing this game is going to be overwhelming
Aztralamis: and honestly we are nothing more than a group of "vapor" guilds in here
Aztralamis: those are the simple facts
Aztralamis: not one of us has proven a thing as a guild
Aztralamis: to think that a few alliances amongst us is going to end strife in the world is sheer idiocy
Aztralamis: the power guilds from the past will still be there, you think they are going to be afraid of a 7 team allied group with no rep
Aztralamis: hell no
Aztralamis: they relish those kinds of challenges
Aztralamis: so in closing I would just like to say that alliances for SB are a great tool but not to just rush into an alliance because you think you have to
Aztralamis: get to know your friends as well as your foes
Aztralamis: a chain is only as strong as its weakest link
Aztralamis: that's it
Madrin: HOT SEAT!! Thanks Az, Vincent you are free to rebut any of the previous statements, even from the beginning of the debate.
CA|Vincent: I'll be pasting fast again...I have lots to say. My apologies.
CA|Vincent: Mikal said how alliances are only done by weak guilds. In this I disagree, especially in
CA|Vincent: Shadowbane. It is clear that WP wanted players to group according to class/specialty/trade.
CA|Vincent: Thus, each guild of a similar class will result in its own strengths and weaknesses.
CA|Vincent: A
CA|Vincent: single guild cannot carry them all. But a coalition, republic, or other such allied structure
CA|Vincent: can contain many guild types; thus, giving diversity and strength to the guilds involved.
CA|Vincent: There are some guilds taking the idea that they don't need alliances and can have all their
CA|Vincent: classes covered by dividing up the guild. The problem with this is the different ideologies
CA|Vincent: that each of the players has.
CA|Vincent: The overall idea of "we want to rox0r" isn't enough to
CA|Vincent: create a long-standing unity within such a guild. Sooner or later that guild will face
CA|Vincent: internal and external problems (in the form of coalitions) and will buckle under the strain.
CA|Vincent: Additionally, by not having to micromanage hundreds of players, small guilds can be united
CA|Vincent: and organized and isolate themselves from internal personality conflicts with other coalition
CA|Vincent: guilds.
CA|Vincent: So a coalition of guilds with compatible and similar ideologies will end up being
CA|Vincent: more stable internally - the individual guilds will be small (relatively) and have a strong
CA|Vincent: brotherhood within. Each of those guilds united creates an overall unity and brotherhood.
CA|Vincent: I wholeheartedly agree with Aztralamis in that being a tightly knit group is essential. When
CA|Vincent: members of a guild all get along very well and are great friends, they can achieve great
CA|Vincent: feats. when such similar guilds are combined, the power grows, as they are internally stable
CA|Vincent: and are bound by their ideologies and goals.
CA|Vincent: However, I disagree with Aztralamis in that alliances SHOULD be formed early - even now.
CA|Vincent: By forming such relationships now, the leaders and members of the allied guilds can develop
CA|Vincent: friendships and bonds, which will only strengthen the overall alliance when they are formed
CA|Vincent: on release.
CA|Vincent: Moreover, Aztralamis says that CQ wishes to side with the strongest. This is
CA|Vincent: precisely the weak ideals which Mikal was condemning. CQ isn't bonding on ideology, they
CA|Vincent: are bonding on strength. And as I said above, the "we want to rox0r" ideal is weak and
CA|Vincent: will result in a failed alliance.
CA|Vincent: CQ is proving itself to be a weak guild because it fails
CA|Vincent: to live up to its own ideals. It just wants to survive. That shows a lack of faith,
CA|Vincent: conviction, and character. Unity and brotherhood are the key, both within each
CA|Vincent: guild, and between allied guilds.
CA|Vincent: NE and Concordis Animus have formed a fealty situation
CA|Vincent: now, and already we are forming good friendships. The integrity of our alliance is already
CA|Vincent: growing strong and its stability is being secured even now.
CA|Vincent: ....
CA|Vincent: ....
CA|Vincent: I'm just killing some time now
Madrin: HOT SEAT!! Mikal, it's your turn. The next 5 minutes are yours. After that, Saliador can step up.
CS|Mikal: Az if you didn't notice I'm against alliances
CS|Mikal: and I'd also like to point out that not all guilds ready for SB are vapor
CS|Mikal: there are a number of guilds you will see making the switch to SB who have been playing together for some time
CS|Mikal: and even guilds built for SB have been playing together
CS|Mikal: Vincent your idea on guilds is short sighted
CS|Mikal: a guild is more than a collection of players on a guild stone
CS|Mikal: or in a monarch
CS|Mikal: I've seen guilds move from game to game and support players on multiply games while remaining strong as a guild
CS|Mikal: the idea that a bunch of small guilds allying retain their individuality is a noble notion
CS|Mikal: but not the case
CS|Mikal: perhaps retaining non-aggression pacts but not entering into an alliance
CS|Mikal: as SB sees it
CS|Mikal: alliances will build empires
CS|Mikal: and their destruction will see empires crumble
CS|Mikal: speaking for my guild we will have members in multiple guild types
CS|Mikal: not everyone wants to play a mage
CS|Mikal: and such
CS|Mikal: and we will have members in other guilds
CS|Mikal: for various reasons, be it alliances in the making or espionage
CS|Mikal: I agree with the both of you, the tighter the guild the better
CS|Mikal: in CS's case if you destroy our guild's town we're not dead
CS|Mikal: we'll be back
CS|Mikal: we've been members of this guild for years
CS|Mikal: a few others and myself being founding members 4 years prior
Madrin: HOT SEAT!! Saliador, have your 5 minutes here, Hwoody is next.
WotS-Salia: I believe that, all in all, strength must come first. Without strength, allies must be relied on to provide it for you.
WotS-Salia: alliances only as strong as its weakest link
WotS-Salia: trust, teamwork, compatibility, and united purpose can help solidify the links between allied guilds
WotS-Salia: friendship between members of allied guilds can only serve to help strengthen the alliance, and thus will be very important
WotS-Salia: I see the fealty system as a form of alliance between weaker and stronger guilds, where traditional alliances would not hold up due to the difference in power levels
WotS-Salia: some power blocks will rely almost exclusively on this type of feudal alliance
WotS-Salia: but without allying with their counterparts who are of similar levels of power, these guilds will have a hard time if they are "successful" and are the most powerful guild in their world, due to the natural tendency for groups to involve themselves in coalitions for survival's sake.
WotS-Salia: another important aspect to any successful alliance, especially one
WotS-Salia: involving fealty, is that they have a way to take care of disputes between the members. Without such recourse, the longevity of the alliance is questionable.
WotS-Salia: Shadowbane is shaping up to be the ultimate "put up or shut up" game. No powerful guild or alliance can simply melt away into the shadows when faced by strong opposition.
WotS-Salia: The strong guilds are, by definition in Shadowbane, the ones that are holding territory.
WotS-Salia: But once a guild become landed, they have a weakness: a home base that can be conquered.
WotS-Salia: In order to survive against a stronger guild, alliance is the only option.
WotS-Salia: There are other types of agreements between guilds that will be more common than alliances, in my view:
WotS-Salia: non-aggression agreements
WotS-Salia: economic (trade) agreements
WotS-Salia: information exchange agreements
WotS-Salia: Again, I see feudal arrangements as an extension of alliances
WotS-Salia: Thank you for your attention.
Madrin: Ok Hwoody, you'll get an extra bit of time here since Saliador is finished.
Madrin: HOT SEAT! Hwoody, you're last up. After that the room will be open for 10 minutes, after which the reps may make closing arguments/statements for 3 minutes.
DD|Hwoody: ok
DD|Hwoody: An alliance should be an extension of a guild, if that's not the relationship that the two guilds share then
DD|Hwoody: the bond between the two guilds is easily broken and ultimately the alliance was just a waste of time. A strong relationship should
DD|Hwoody: always be established before an alliance even comes to mind.
DD|Hwoody: Death Dreams has changed its stance on allies many times.
DD|Hwoody: In the beginning we easily made alliances in hopes of making ourselves stronger...but now we have learned a bond
DD|Hwoody: must be established. Now we take alliances more seriously..like I said an extension of our guild.
DD|Hwoody: In order to ensure strong alliances, I speak to guild leaders...constantly. There is where I learn what they are willing to do for
DD|Hwoody: Death Dreams as an ally. There is where I see the loyalty in fellow guilds.
DD|Hwoody: Now in defense of my sayings...
DD|Hwoody: Many guilds think they are strong enough to have no allies...Not true..there will be many guilds in SB.
DD|Hwoody: If they aren't your allies then chances are they will sooner of later become your enemy...
DD|Hwoody: What happens when Alliance-Less guilds start losing? They will probably go begging for allies...in which case they will not get many.
DD|Hwoody: Sometimes you must put your pride aside for the good of your guild. Some guilds with a lot of members see themselves as "invincible"...
DD|Hwoody: funny. Considering there will be thousands of players and I doubt any guild will have even close to the thousands. IN the end those people
DD|Hwoody: become your enemies...how? When the live right next to you...and they want land..they aren't your allies? Then they are your enemies...
DD|Hwoody: Ultimately Alliances come down to pride...If a guild has too much they won't ally and they will die. A good guild has enough to stand up for what they believe and make alliances.
DD|Hwoody: O and sorry for the bad grammar
DD|Hwoody: I'm done:)
Madrin: End of period 2! Open chat until 9:25 CST, and then I'll silence the room for the final statements.
************************* BEGIN OPEN CHAT ********************************
mons1: ok
Aegis|Nex: heh
LotD-Elkor: hi
LotD-Elkor: heh
Madrin: We'll go in the original order from there.
Aegis|Nex: peace out all
Gorukha]CO: To THOSE Who are Against Alliances: One is the loneliest number that you'll ever DO, 2 can be as bad as 1 , its the loneliest number since the number 1
Aegis|Nex: have fun........talking.......
Gorukha]CO: lol
Thor|BS: Hmm...
LotD-Parad: My my, look at all the LOTD names
Spiridus|C: lol Gorukha
CS|Mikal: hehe
LotD-Parad: We're all color coordinated. All we need are the trenchcoats and the tommyguns
LotD-Elkor: I prefer ak-47
Aegis|Nex: I love LotD
LotD-Elkor: I know it doesn't go with the outfit... But, still :)
BS|Thor: Look! I'm up at the top of the name list now! HAHAHAAH
LotD-Parad: We love LOTD too.
Khraiven: hey Madrin, maybe next time the debate can be held with all (x leaders) active at once? Might help make it more of a debate.
LotD-Chupi: maybe clubs.. just beat people
Kindred: it does not go with the debate either
Aegis|Nex: no
Aegis|Nex: I am
Aegis|Nex: f00l
Aegis|Nex: :P
BS|Thor: Up at the top, not at the very top
Aegis|Nex: oh
CS|Mikal: how many guilds here have already forged alliances?
Aegis|Nex: all I need is an @
WotS-Salia: when SB goes gold, maybe we can do these things in-game?
DD|Hwoody: Us
Aegis|Nex: come to #nex for further details
Aegis|Nex: :)
WotS-Salia: that way we can make it *really* entertaining :)
Madrin: Khraiven- I didn't want this to turn into a clusterf*ck. I wanted this to be a very traditional, civil debate.. not a chat
Gorukha]CO: We'll end up fighting in game gehehe
CS|Mikal: how did you choose your allies Hwoody?
CS|Mikal: TC!
mons1: look if these cats think they can thrive at this game with out having a few outside "friends" is out of his mind...it doesn't take a really hard effort to unify 5 or 6
Khraiven: I understand, I meant for only the 6 (or whatever) leaders to have the floor.
Gorukha]CO: by a little thing called talking I think
Kindred: well no way to respond?
Madrin: That might be an idea for next time. I'm open to suggestion.
Aegis|Nex: so are you guys making alliances as we speak?
Khraiven: anyway, just a though
Gorukha]CO: Well the guilds have UO mentality
Aegis|Nex: ok I'm done :P
Kindred: What good is having friends when not all are going after the same goal?
Gorukha]CO: They forget you lose land in this one, you can't just ban people from your castle
Aegis|Nex: bye all
WotS-Fadai: to limit yourself to no allies is possibly giving away a valuable asset
Lynx|PoP: I think an open chat with only leaders would be interesting
Gorukha]CO: Saying bring it on is a bad ideology
Gorukha]CO: Which will destroy em
TrbleClef: bah
LotD-Gauns: Gor: You are thinking late UO mentality. Many guilds have early UO mentality where there was no such thing as banning from houses/castles/etc
LotD-Gauns: you lost land, homes, territory, etc
Lynx|PoP: interesting to see who resorts to name calling trash talking first
BS|Thor: Expect for patron, Lynx, he's too much of an arrogant jackass, he would ruin any fun!
Gorukha]CO: Well in UOI you never really lost anything
CS|Mikal: Gorukha, you're going with the mentality that all guilds desire land
Gorukha]CO: That's what I was talking about
CS|Mikal: I'm much more interested in killing
Gorukha]CO: Well without land you won't have any power
CS|Mikal: whether it gives me land or not
CS|Mikal: depends on your view of power
Gorukha]CO: well you'll get killed more then kill ureself in the end
Bunktavio: Mikal, without land, you won't have the resources to support your wars..
CS|ALka: does power = land or does power = skill?
CS|Mikal: "oh I own more land than you, I'm more powerful!"
Lynx|PoP: I was madly amused when Patron stormed out after being silenced by +m
Gorukha]CO: exactly
Thor|BS: Power equals power.
CS|Mikal: no matter how much land you own you won't survive a knife in the back
Gorukha]CO: Patron is a big baby
CS|ALka: ya but just cuz u have land doesn't mean your better than me
Gorukha]CO: heheh
Bunktavio: I think land will lend itself to power quite a bit in this game
mons1: lemme drop a jewel here...
Gorukha]CO: Your guild won't survive long being hated by everyone like TCE
Gorukha]CO: even if you do own no land
CS|Mikal: we've survived 4 years
CS|Mikal: =\
Gorukha]CO: where will l train
Gorukha]CO: This isn't UO
Gorukha]CO: or EQ
Khraiven: yup
CS|Mikal: doesn't have to be
Gorukha]CO: totally different environment
Khraiven: can go either way
Yadosh|TCE: GNOLL TRAIN!!!!!!!RUN!!!!!!!!!
CS|Mikal: we'll be in your guild Gorukha
Kindred: 4 years where?
Gorukha]CO: This could be the end of your care bear guild
CS|ALka: care bear
CS|ALka: lol
CS|ALka: !
Khraiven: heh
Khraiven: someone's making friends heh
CS|Mikal: diablo, star craft, uo, ac, ut, q3, tribes, run
Gorukha]CO: All other games nurtured guilds
Thor|BS: I'm gonna make a n00b guild, call it The Carebears
Gorukha]CO: hahahaha diablo
Gorukha]CO: SC
Gorukha]CO: is that a joke ?
Kindred: is CS Chaotic Soldiers?
CS|Mikal: enjoy it
Thor|BS: And we'll go around disguised as carebears and kill people while singing carebear songs
CS|ALka: yes
CS|Mikal: yeah
CS|SMoKe|: yes
Thor|BS: Give the word a new meaning
Gorukha]CO: All other games nurtured guilds
Gorukha]CO: like little cubs
Kindred: Met you guys in Diablo and UO
Kindred: lol
CS|ALka: =)
CS|Pedophi: my CS is (little-kid) cock smoker
Gorukha]CO: In this one you're getting thrown on the sacrificial alter
Hothram: what's COTA?
CS|Pedophi: :
CS|Pedophi: :D
CS|Mikal: that's just the way we like it
CS|Mikal: Goru
Madrin: A guild should all dress like teletubbies and kick arse, a la Zack from DOA
CS|Mikal: we've survived
CS|Mikal: far worse
Gorukha]CO: That's because ur mentality is old fashioned
CS|Mikal: than anything SB can offer
Thor|BS: But Madrin, the difference there is teletubbies are actually scary.
Thor|BS: And one of them gays
Khraiven: how could you know that Mikal?
WotS-Fadai: CS: Are you not making alliances of your brethren when you band together as a guild? If you truly believe what say, then why not stand alone Patron?
CS|Mikal: you're thinking on the level that guilds are a bunch of characters on a stone
Gorukha]CO: You have never faced anything like SB so don't speak prematurely
Madrin: Very true Thor.
Bunktavio: Not saying you won't survive without land Mikal, you just wont grow in power
Madrin: Like that baby in the sun... WEIRD
Thor|BS: That baby in the sun is the scariest part
Cyrus_Khan: CA: you talk of having well-organized alliances of people who have similar goals.... why not just have one guild?
CS|Mikal: Bunk, depends on your idea of power
Thor|BS: WORSHIP THE BABY SUN GOD
CS|Mikal: Goru.
Gorukha]CO: yes ?
CS|Mikal: CS has 6 members who all are RL friends
Gorukha]CO: and ?
Bunktavio: True, but I think most aspects of power in SB will require having at least some land
CS|Mikal: take our castle 100 times
CS|Mikal: we'll still be CS
Gorukha]CO: IN UO I have seen real friends break apart like that
mons1: look there will be a 5 to 8 guild coalition that will get along its just a matter of who is in and who is out...I imho have read the info forward and backward and with the release of the geography all it takes is a moving truck to get started and communication and trust...there are 5 guilds that feel like I do when they are found then they may persuade their friends...se where I'm going
Gorukha]CO: because of a game
Cyrus_Khan: I mean, if the ideals are similar, and it's not just about "We want to r0xx0r" then why not just have one guild?
Bunktavio: I agree with you, you'll just be the weak homeless CS :)
CS|Mikal: then they were idiots
Thor|BS: I plan on having alliances with friends from previous games.. Only they won't be strategic alliances - We'll all form one nation
Gorukha]CO: that's just 6 members man
Kindred: Count me out. I'm only joining one guild. hehe
CA|Vincent: right on mons
CS|Mikal: lets assume for a second
CS|Mikal: your guild owns half the world
CS|Mikal: all that land
T-Vhalembe: There already exist 5+ guild coalitions. :)
CS|Mikal: but inside your guild
CS|Mikal: you've got members
CS|Mikal: who are plotting to throw you down
Hothram: what are they?
Thor|BS: Guilds are the ultimate alliance between individuals, nations and city-states are the ultimate alliance between guilds.
Cyrus_Khan: Vincent, what about my question?
CS|Mikal: who will see you break from the inside
Gorukha]CO: traitors to be eliminated
CS|Mikal: how much power will the land give you
Hothram: lots
Hothram: money
CS|Mikal: when your second in command suddenly wants half for himself
Hothram: taxes
Hothram: economy
Bunktavio: I see your point, and its true, I'm not saying you need fast amounts of land, but you better have firm control of the land you do have
Gorukha]CO: Well the guild will split
Gorukha]CO: depending on how many people follow whom
Thor|BS: That's why you have to be friends and trust them, Mikal.
CS|Mikal: exactly
Kindred: if the second in command knew how much work it was to take care of that land he/she may think twice
CS|Mikal: which wont happen in large-scale alliances
Thor|BS: Another reason why vapor guilds aren't that great ;p
Chade: Thor|BS how can u trust someone u have never played with
Madrin: 2 minutes to room silence.
Thor|BS: Exactly
Gorukha]CO: Well those guilds wouldn't be at the top if they never allied so it's better that way
CS|Mikal: let everyone ally
CS|Mikal: more sheep for the slaughter
Gorukha]CO: better 2 alliances of 3 guilds then 6 separate
Khraiven: heh
CS|Mikal: all walking in line
Kindred: It won't be easy to manage one city
CS|Mikal: hand in hand
Bunktavio: Thetas what will make this game interesting, trying to hold together alliances as they start to grow unwieldy
Aztralamis: your slaughter Mikal?
Kindred: I won't be walking hand in hand. At least I don't' plan to
Spiridus|C: To answer for Vincent- for strength in the guild mechanics of preferred classes. Because little differences always exist. Because it is easier to manage small groups than large
CS|Mikal: if that's how it will be
Thor|BS: If everyone is allied, how do you expect to fight them all
Aztralamis: Lol good luck
CS|Mikal: Kindred, these guilds seem to want to
mons1: 6 small guilds can hold a great spot especially if say gold day all leaders are icq or aim we pick a server/shard and get it on, e-mail ( the same guys you talk to now) and a few new ppl ...Man this IS NOT rocket science it can work...eliminate jerks and enjoy what WP has in store for us
CS|Mikal: bah
Spiridus|C: Because merging established guilds is hard and leads to bruised egos where alliances between equals are easier to manage.
Spitnaz|CQ: How many of the guilds present in this room will be around when SB goes gold? And you wanna make alliances with them?
Kindred: hehe
CS|Mikal: your all thinking face to face
Cyrus_Khan: I'd like to see what an alliance of 5 guild is like. I mean, who leads them? Is it a council? If so, I picture a decent amount of arguing about what to do, and when to do it. And if there isn't arguing, then why not combine guilds?
CS|Mikal: in a game as politically motivated as SB
CS|Mikal: you won't have to fight face to face
Aztralamis: if you are 4 years old I am wondering how you have seeped around and thru the cracks all this time without being known. I have played everything from UO on and have never heard of you
Lynx|PoP: its all good mons
Kindred: I don't believe in alliances. Not worth the trouble.
Thor|BS: Even if my city or nation is actually 10 small guilds - I want them to act as one.
Gorukha]CO: actually a council of 5 is perfect
Cyrus_Khan: MONS
Cyrus_Khan: Please
CS|Mikal: because we don't desire a name Az
Thor|BS: Not as a wimpy a coalition of guilds.
Chade: multiple guilds allied in once city is bad
Cyrus_Khan: Look at my comments
************************* END OPEN CHAT ********************************
Madrin: OK here we go.. this is the representative's final opportunity to round out their arguments. There won't be any score here, only the rap you get from the 60+ people who were in here for the debate! Hwoody, you're up first. 3 minutes only, then Saliador is up.
DD|Hwoody: Ok
DD|Hwoody: Nothing I haven't said or others haven't said
DD|Hwoody: "Alliances will be the backbone of the stronger guilds"
DD|Hwoody: You have the members
DD|Hwoody: and you have the support-the alliances
DD|Hwoody: Hundreds of guilds will be present in SB...If your guild doesn't ally with any of them...then that's just more people against your guild
DD|Hwoody: An alliance now is not needed...but making allies now will only make the bond stronger come release
DD|Hwoody: That's it:)
Madrin: Hot seat! Saliador, 3.5 minutes and then Mikal us up to finish his arguments.
WotS-Salia: In closing, I would like to point out that the success of individual guilds using a fealty arrangement will simply cause alliances to be forced to succeed
WotS-Salia: when people are backed into a corner, they make things work.
WotS-Salia: Alliances only work when they are made to do so
WotS-Salia: So, when huge guilds form, they will be matched by alliances that create a more powerful block
WotS-Salia: it is only a natural evolution
WotS-Salia: The reverse, however, I believe will not hold true
WotS-Salia: an alliance formed to simply dominate the world will fail due to infighting
WotS-Salia: so, in my view, it goes back to the key: strength of each guild
WotS-Salia: the strongest power blocks will be the guide to determine how alliances work in the game
WotS-Salia: We shall see how it unfolds.
WotS-Salia: Thanks again for your time.
Madrin: Hot seat! Mikal, make the most of your final 3 minutes. After that, Vincent is up.
CS|Mikal: lets see
CS|Mikal: everyone speaks of power being the land you control
CS|Mikal: and allies help you control that land
CS|Mikal: allies make you weak because they open you up to new threats
CS|Mikal: everyone's ready for face to face battles
CS|Mikal: that's a given
CS|Mikal: has been on every game
CS|Mikal: but true power in war
CS|Mikal: is more subtle
CS|Mikal: case in point
CS|Mikal: a guild on UO (I know I'm talking about uo bleh)
CS|Mikal: I was a "member" of their guild for a few weeks
CS|Mikal: they grew to trust me
CS|Mikal: only for me to give my members their where abouts at all times
CS|Mikal: we slaughtered them
CS|Mikal: not because we had more members
CS|Mikal: or because we had better guys
CS|Mikal: but because we knew more about them than they did us
CS|Mikal: that is true power
CS|Mikal: guild alliances with 100+ members will crumble with just one person
CS|Mikal: I say plan your alliances, talk about times to come on the battlefield
CS|Mikal: just beware those you call friends
Madrin: Hot Seat! Vincent is up for 3, after that, Az has the final word.
CA|Vincent: First, I would like to say Mikal's claims about alliance failures
CA|Vincent: can happen in the cases where guilds are not bound by compatible ideologies
CA|Vincent: and certainly does not happen in every case.
CA|Vincent: ...
CA|Vincent: The key to any alliance is brotherhood, unity, organization, and a strong ideology. If any of those
CA|Vincent: are missing, the alliance, and possibly an individual guild itself is prone to internal
CA|Vincent: instability and factioning. A guild or alliance which has all of those will profit with
CA|Vincent: both power and influence in the political world.
CA|Vincent: ...
CA|Vincent: oritical concepts from other MMORPGs, such as UO and EQ will not work here. This guild landscape and
CA|Vincent: political landscape is much more in-depth than those games combined. It will require careful
CA|Vincent: diplomatic and political moves, and it will require guilds to think out of the box. Moreover,
CA|Vincent: it will require creative and intelligent leaders to pull off the unity and brotherhood
CA|Vincent: required to manage a large coalition of guilds.
CA|Vincent: The key is choosing the RIGHT guilds. Not
CA|Vincent: just any guild can be in alliance. It requires compatibility in goals and ideals. Without
CA|Vincent: that compatibility, the dissolution of the alliance is inevitable. Overall, unity and brotherhood between guilds,
CA|Vincent: focused on compatible ideologies, will achieve the greatest power in Shadowbane. Building those
CA|Vincent: alliances now only helps to strengthen the bonds between them.
CA|Vincent: Organization and ideology are everything.
CA|Vincent: ...
CA|Vincent: that is all
Madrin: Final Hot Seat! Az, it's all yours for the last 3 minutes.
Aztralamis: Ok remember this before you go to bed tonight and think about it as you drift off to sleep, Az has the final word
Aztralamis: Now let me just say a few things about stuff that has been said to this point
Aztralamis: someone said that when backed into a corner you are forced to succeed
Aztralamis: I think this is completely wrong
Aztralamis: when backed into a corner things tend to fall apart much faster
Aztralamis: and once the ball is rolling its hard to stop
Aztralamis: with a little thought and foresight on who you are dealing with before entering an alliance a lot of this can be avoided
Aztralamis: why form alliances
Aztralamis: if it is because so and so did
Aztralamis: and the endless crusade empire has 4 sub guilds
Aztralamis: then that is just the wrong mode of though
Aztralamis: you form alliances because you consider said guild to be of the same makeup as you and your goals and thoughts are along the same lines
Aztralamis: you don't get this information in 1 week
Aztralamis: it takes time
Aztralamis: learn a person's personalities, get to know them
Madrin: Ok... that does it!
Madrin: BIG thanks for all of you for coming, and congrats to those who participated. I am DEFINITELY doing this in two weeks.
Madrin: My mail address is Madrin@sprynet.com if you'd like to apply or give your ideas.
Log file closed at: 1/26/01 12:20:00 AM